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The Ezra Klein Show

Trump Is Building His Own Paramilitary Force

The Ezra Klein Show

New York Times Opinion

Society & Culture, Government, News

4.611K Ratings

🗓️ 27 August 2025

⏱️ 68 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

ICE now has the biggest budget of any law enforcement agency in America. “ICE and Customs and Border Protection have long been the most rogue, kind of renegade and certainly pro-Trump police agencies in the federal government,” explained Radley Balko, a journalist who’s covered policing for decades. “What I think we are seeing right now is Trump is attempting to build his own paramilitary force. They want people whose first, ultimate loyalty in this job is going to be to the president.” Balko is the author of “Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America’s Police Forces.” And he’s been tracking the changes at ICE and the Trump administration’s escalating law-and-order tactics on his excellent newsletter, The Watch. Mentioned: “ICE’s Mind-Bogglingly Massive Blank Check” by Caitlin Dickerson “The police militarization debate is over” by Radley Balko Book Recommendations: The Highest Law in the Land by Jessica Pishko Unruly by David Mitchell Bottoms Up and the Devil Laughs by Kerry Howley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Will Peischel. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin, Aman Sahota, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Transcript

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0:00.0

The

0:07.0

The You know those optical illusions where you look at a picture, and depending on where and how your eyes focus, maybe you're looking at a vase, maybe you're looking at two faces. It kind of keeps flickering back and forth. Looking at the Trump administration is like that for me, though the flickering is between this is democracy. The American people are getting what they voted for good and hard.

0:55.0

Or this is authoritarianism, at least the road to authoritarianism.

1:01.1

I can see the picture of a president doing what he was elected to do.

1:07.7

Donald Trump ran unquestionably on mass deportations. He ran on reversing a historic surge of migration into this country. He won on that platform. He is just doing what he promised. He's tripling ISIS budget. He's funneling tens of billions of dollars to build detention centers. In LA, protesters tried to obstruct him, so Trump called up the National

1:29.1

Guard. And after years of railing about crime levels in our major cities, Trump is using the

1:34.9

power he has over Washington, D.C., to do something about it, to show Americans that he's doing

1:40.1

something about it. I don't like any of this. I certainly didn't vote for it. But Trump promised

1:46.2

and Americans did vote for the biggest deportation operation in U.S. history. It was always going

1:51.0

to be ugly and cruel. So I can see that picture. And then it flickers. My eyes refocus. I see the

1:59.0

evisceration of due process. I see them building detention centers where it is

2:03.9

extraordinarily hard for lawyers and families to reach the people in them. I see men in masks

2:11.4

refusing to ID themselves and pulling people into vans. I see armed U.S. troops in camo, some on horseback, riding through

2:20.1

MacArthur Park in Los Angeles, like they're an occupying army. I see Trump sending in

2:26.2

armed forces to take over the American capital. What is going to happen when, predictably,

2:55.7

a protest or a rock at an agent, or a Marine, here's a car backfiring and thinks they hurt a gunshot? In an instant, this could all explode. You could have American troops firing on American civilians in an American city and a country-defining crisis. And then what? What happens then? Because that's the other picture I see, the one that keeps coming into clear focus. Not Trump cleaning up crisis or disorder, but Trump creating crisis

3:02.2

and disorder so he can build what he has wanted to build. An authoritarian state, a military or a paramilitary that answers

3:10.3

only to him that puts him in total control. And I wonder, are these pictures even different?

3:18.5

Trump promised all of this. You can destroy democracy somewhat democratically.

3:29.3

Radley Balco is a journalist who's written about policing and criminal justice for decades.

3:33.6

He's the author of Rise of the Warrior Cop, the militarization of America's police forces,

3:41.3

and he writes the terrific substack of the watch where he's been tracking the militarization and the escalation of all this under Donald Trump.

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