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But winning back time and growing your business, leave that to sum up. Take orders and payments anywhere with the new sum up terminal. Turn occasional customers into regulars with a free loyalty program. And with the sumup point of sale system, you'll always know when you're running low on your best selling blends. Visit sumup.co.uk to learn more. Hey guys, it's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at

the Bullock, and I am joined today by Liz Oyer, former U.S. pardon attorney, now author of the

substack, get this. Lawyer Oyer. How did you come up with that one?

That's right. Honestly, since childhood, people have been calling me things like Liz

lawyer because of my tendency to advocate vociferously for things that I believe in. So it came naturally.

It was destiny in a way. Okay. Welcome to the podcast and then welcome to the substack world. I hope you're enjoying the newsletter writing. I know this is not the path you thought you would be taking to this type of

venture, but you're here now. So it's good to have you. Subscribe to Liz's substack. I'm sure she

would appreciate it as well. All right. So, um, yes. Let's start with a basic biography here.

There's a reason we're talking, which is you were fired fairly

early in the Trump administration involving pressures that you felt around a certain pardon

involving the actor Mel Gibson. But before we get even into that, tell us a little bit about

sort of how you got to public service and became a pardon attorney.

Sure. Yeah. I actually came to DOJ from being a federal public defender for 10 years. So I sort of

consider myself a public defender for life. But I was most recently at the Department of Justice

for three years in the role of pardon attorney, which was just this

tremendous opportunity to bring the perspective of a defense attorney to the endeavor of clemency,

which is all about providing second chances to people who've really earned and deserve them.

Or at least that's what it was all about.

What does a pardon attorney do, like day in and day out?

Yeah.

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