Hey, everybody. It's me, Sam Stein, managing editor at the bulwark. And I am so pleased to have as a

return guest, Liz Oyer, who is the former pardon attorney for the Department of Justice,

left in circumstances that we will recap at some point during this conversation. She now is

lawyer-oyer, if you get it, it rhymes. And she has a substack.

She's on YouTube.

She's on Instagram.

She's all over the feeds.

In part because the stuff she talks about pardons is constantly in the news.

Liz, thanks so much for doing this.

Really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me, Sam.

So last time we talked, it was sort of at the beginningish stage of the Trump administration. You had been relieved

of your duties because you had declined to go ahead with a, was it a commutation or a pardon

of Mel Gibson for a gun offense. I want to be technically correct.

Which one was it?

He was trying to get his gun rights restored.

And I was actually going to get his guns back.

I didn't do that.

And I was fired.

So that happened.

And we were talking a lot about what the future held in store for Trump with this pardon power.

He had already, by that point,

...