Hello, true, true spies, listeners. Welcome back. Here on the debrief, we catch up with some of our favorite guests from the True Spies Archive for a deeper look at the themes,

events and insights that fascinate them.

Behind some of the most consequential, dangerous and outlandish missions in the CIA's history

was a man called Frank Wisner.

But while Wisner helped to orchestrate these high-risk clandestine operations,

his mental health was unraveling. Our guest today is Douglas Waller, an esteemed journalist

and the author of seven books, the most recent of which is The Determined Spy, the Turbulent

Life and Times of CIA Pione CIA pioneer Frank Wisner.

True spy's producer Morgan Childs recently sat down with Douglas to discuss his complex leading

man, the illness that plagued him, and the indelible mark his tenure left on the US, and

the wider world.

Douglas, I'm very happy that you're here to discuss a very impressive study of a really

interesting person. And I think I should say before we start that we are likely to talk

about mental illness and suicide. And so if there are listeners

who don't feel that they're in a place for that sort of conversation, please take care of

yourselves. Doug, you have said that you have always gravitated towards controversial characters.

What do you mean by that? And who do you mean by that? Well, this particular book, The Determined Spy, is, I guess you could call it the third in a

trilogy of books that I've written. The first one was a biography of General William Wild Bill Donovan,

who was Franklin Roosevelt's spy chief, head of his Office of Strategic Services during World War II.

Donovan was a very controversial character, and for a biographer, he was someone fascinating

to explore.

People revered him and hated him.

...