Hello and welcome to Trigonometry. I'm Francis Foster. I'm Constantine Kissen. And this is a show for

you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people. What a terrific guest we have for you

today. He's the former chairman of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.

Trevor Phillips, welcome to Trigonometry. Thank you very much indeed, Francis and Constantine.

It's been a while getting here, but I'm glad we are here now.

As are we. As are we. You know, in doing the research, one of the things that shocked me the most

is your age. You look so unbelievably young. It's unreal. But you've had a distinguished career.

I love this show already. I love this show already. Can we just, can we just forget that bit for

another, oh, 25 times? We can keep going on that topic. But you've had a distinguished career

and the question I really want to ask you is how have you gone from being one of the most

prominent anti-racist activists and spokespeople to being where you are now, which is being one of the

most prominent critics of identity politics suspended from the Labour Party and here talking to us

on this very problematic show. How has that happened? The world changed, Constantine. The world changed.

I wouldn't say that, you know, I'm not one of those idiots who sit around and says,

I stayed the same and everybody else changed. That's nonsense and that's both arrogant and also

the mark of somebody extremely dim. But it is also true to say that when I started on

my journey in public life, which was as a journalist really, the things that mattered most were

what's true, what you know, what can you actually assert as opposed to what do you believe,

to a place where actually now I think what seems to be more important is the last one,

what do you believe and therefore what facts quote unquote will you select and who's gang do you

belong to? And I think if I were to give an answer to your question that made any sense, I suspect part

of the problem in if you like my public image as you've described it is that I don't really belong

...