Hello and welcome to Not Another One, the podcast with me, Steve Richards, Tim Montgomery, Miranda Green and Ian Martin.

But today, with Miranda recovering from COVID and Ian still on his

beach listening to the latest 1970s pop music. It's Tim and I. And for those of you who kindly

heard the last podcast, we were exploring the crisis within the government, which is deep.

But remarkably, because normally if a government's in crisis, the main opposition party is buoyant.

But in this extraordinary political situation we're in now, the main opposition party,

the Conservatives, are also in crisis. And of course, a few days ago, they had a major

defection from the Tory parliamentary party when Danny Kruger went over to reform.

So I think, Tim, if we could begin by exploring, we've talked a lot about reform in recent podcasts,

what you would do, given that you were founder of the hugely influential conservative home website, What would you do if you were a senior

Tory at the moment? Because they haven't worked out quite how to deal with reform. And yet they have

now lost a big defector. And these defections are traumatic for parties. What do they need to do in

your view? Work with Nigel Farage in some form or move to that kind of one nation,

Tory tradition and give up on reform? What the hell does Kenny Bade not do? I think it's so difficult now, Steve.

Just before I answer that question, and I will, this isn't a politician trying to

dodge the question, but I do think the Danny defection was the most substantial of them all

so far.

Lots of people have looked at previous defections,

defections like Nadine Doris, and although some have understood the significance of a former

cabinet minister leaving, you know, Nadine was not an uncontroversial character, and some

have been sort of glad to say good riddance, and it's true of some of the other people who

defected to reform as well.

...