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Welcome to the HBR idea cast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Allison Beard. We've been talking

about humble leadership for years now, but it still sometimes feels like the most arrogant

and ambitious people are the ones getting ahead. I won't name names, but a few tech world

billionaires, populist politicians, rappers, and reality stars come to mind. I'm sure you

have bosses and colleagues who also fit the bill. Of course, there are counter examples

too, smart and confident leaders who also show humility and use that combination to rise

to the top. Mary Barra of GM, Jacinda Ardern of New Zealand, lots of people at my work and

maybe yours. But how exactly did they manage it? How do you stay humble while also proving

your worth? How do you advance without showing too much ambition? My guest today has been

studying these issues for years and has some advice on how to get the balance right.

Ameri Kaisi is a professor of healthcare administration at Trinity University and the author

of Humbitious, the power of low ego, high drive leadership. Ameri, so glad to have you

on the show. Thank you, Allison. Happy to be here. Let's start with some definitions. What

do you mean by humility and how do you measure it? Yeah, humility keeps our feet on the ground

by allowing us to have an accurate assessment of our own abilities by understanding our strength

and our weaknesses. And there's been research that has been done for the last 10, 15 years

that have allowed us to measure it very objectively, in fact. And of course, it's better to be

measured by other people than for it to be self-reported. But we have a lot of measures now that

allow us to understand whether a certain individual or a certain leader is humble. For example, are

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