Let us begin.

Let us begin.

Yes.

I'm Dar Williams.

I'm a singer-songwriter, and I've been leading a songwriting retreat for the last 10 years.

So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. This is actually the second time that I've had the opportunity to interview you.

The first time was now getting to be a really long time ago. It was in 2014, and it was

after the second time I had gone to your songwriting retreat in 2013. And you and I were sitting

on a bench outside of the Garrison Institute that repurposed monastery. You know, you were giving me the opportunity

as a fresh audio producer to interview you. And it was great. We were coming right off of the

retreat. You were talking about why you actually wanted to create a songwriting retreat and why you wanted it to be about writing a

song that matters and not just writing a song that will get you famous or writing a song like yours

or you know but everybody kind of writing their own song and being given permission to and now

you've written a book about it.

Yes, and that's exactly, and thank goodness it's called, well, the book is called How to Write a Song That Matters, and the retreat is writing a song that matters.

And the great thing about that title was that it was very self-selecting for people who really wanted to figure

out how to get that song out that meant something to them and so what I wanted to

talk to you about this time was how you wrote a song that matters to me about art

and we're gonna get to that song in due time. But I wanted to start by talking

about your relationship with museums. Because you've talked about museums, both in your book

and when we've been to museums together, as simultaneously being a place that isn't necessarily about the art itself, but that opens you up into what you describe as poetic thinking,

into that place where your mind goes into soft focus and you allow in all of the inspiration.

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