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The Good Fight

Timothy Garton Ash on Europe, Past and Present

The Good Fight

Yascha Mounk

News

4.6907 Ratings

🗓️ 22 April 2023

⏱️ 58 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

Timothy Garton Ash, a distinguished historian, is Professor of European Studies at Oxford University. His latest book is Homelands: A Personal History of Europe. In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Timothy Garton Ash discuss the hopes and delusions of the “post-Wall” era; a critical analysis of two of Europe’s most influential politicians, Emmanuel Macron and Angela Merkel; and what a Europe guided by “European values” would look like. This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity. Please do listen and spread the word about The Good Fight. If you have not yet signed up for our podcast, please do so now by following this link on your phone. Email: [email protected] Website: http://www.persuasion.community Podcast production by John Taylor Williams, and Brendan Ruberry Connect with us! Spotify | Apple | Google Twitter: @Yascha_Mounk & @joinpersuasion Youtube: Yascha Mounk LinkedIn: Persuasion Community Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

And the And now the good fight with Yasha Monk.

0:17.0

Hi, my name is Sam Khan. I'm an associate editor of Persuasion and I wanted to talk about my recent piece

0:28.7

Our Deep Blue Ops Lessons on AI Creativity in chess. This was a fun piece to write and emerged out of a

0:34.3

friendly debate I was having with Francisco Toro. His piece, our deep blue moment,

0:38.4

was an optimistic take on AI through the prism of chess. It was a smart piece, I respected it, and I fundamentally

0:44.4

disagreed with it. I'm an avid chess player, I've been playing for a long time, and for me the

0:48.7

best part about it wasn't even necessarily the games themselves, it was the Kibbtsing sessions that followed them.

0:53.2

This is a very familiar scene in any city park and any chess club anywhere in the world.

0:57.2

The game finishes and then everybody starts arguing about it.

1:00.3

And recently I've noticed that doesn't really exist anymore. Somebody reaches into their pocket, pulls out a phone, and a super computer or AI program tells them what should have happened in the game.

1:09.0

And I felt that something incalculable was lost in that and actually was a good way to talk about

1:13.1

larger issues in art.

1:15.1

There's a tendency to view activities like chess as being about getting at some sort of objective

1:18.4

logical truth or being better than an opponent, but that's not really the heart of the

1:22.3

activity.

1:22.8

It's hard as that it's fun, it's social, and actually it's an opportunity to express something

1:26.8

about yourself.

1:27.8

That's all the more the case in art, which is about saying something about one's human condition.

1:32.2

There's a rhetorical framework around AI claiming that it's part of progress

1:35.0

that it's going to make us better at all sorts of things

1:38.0

but my argument in the piece is that there's something we lost with it

1:41.0

something core about ourselves that we're unlikely to ever get back. So that's the piece, a

...

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