You're listening to a podcast from the BBC World Service. This is Hard Talk with me, Stephen Sacker.

Thanks for downloading this edition of the program. I do hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to Hard Talk on the BBC World Service with me, Stephen Sacker. My guest today has written two deeply personal books about his experiences and identity as a mixed

race American. Thomas Chatterton Williams' father was a black American whose family hailed from the segregated

South. His mother was white and blonde. As a boy and young man, Thomas identified with black popular culture. It gave him a

sense of black identity. But then he started to question the stereotypes he was being fed. He moved to

Paris, where he was freed from America's particular race legacy. He married a white French woman and his first child,

a blue-eyed, fair-haired daughter, prompted a major rethink on issues of race and identity,

captured in his second book, Self-Portrait in Black and White. He describes himself as an ex-black man. He challenges those both

black and white who define themselves by the color of their skin. It's controversial territory,

particularly in this age of Black Lives Matter and a new global focus on issues of race and

racism. Negative reaction to his ideas from the left prompted Thomas

Chatterton Williams to challenge so-called cancel culture, what he sees as a woke censoriousness,

stifling legitimate debate. So how much room is there right now for respectful, thoughtful discussion?

He joins me now from Paris.

Thomas Chatterton, Williams, welcome to Hard Talk.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show.

Thomas, I think we need to begin with a little bit of your personal story.

You were born in the United States to a black father and

a white mother. I'm just wondering how, as a child, now that you've had many, many years to reflect on it,

how did you forge your own sense of identity coming from a mixed race family?

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