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Hello and welcome to the Bullwark podcast.

I'm your host, Tim Miller.

I'm delighted to welcome. Yet another staff writer at the Atlantic. His new book has titled Some of Our Discontent, The Age of Certainty and the Demise of Discourse. It's Thomas Chatterton Williams. What's up, man?

Hey, how you doing, Tim? I'm doing well. I got to put cards on the table with you for a second here at the start, though, before we get into the terrible news.

And that is, we went through a period of time where you kind of annoyed me.

We don't know each other, actually, but your social media presence did because I was of the camp, obviously, here at the Bullwark, who is like, the Trump threat is so great.

We have to focus on this.

There are these guys over here that are worried about Landon and Wesleyan having to suffer a woke pile on, and that that's the big problem.

And I think that, like, with the benefit of hindsight, future has kind of proven both of us right in a weird way.

But I wonder what,

I wonder what you would have said to me had we been podcasting then about that critique.

I think we would actually agree on much more than we would disagree on. I would concede that

those were low stakes kind of arguments that shouldn't have been given the attention they were.

And that one of the reasons why I thought it was really important not to have those kinds of

arguments and not to be so excessive in the desire to impose a kind of set of newfangled

...