So we're going to talk about how there's this one thing that will crush your marketing if you don't take it seriously.

So Neil and I might have different interpretations here and I'm going to go ahead and start first and we'll go back and forth.

So I think one thing that will crush your marketing for sure, this is probably the one thing

is if you don't build a culture of experimentation and And what that means is you're constantly,

one, you're very open-minded.

You're two, that means you're also open to failure.

And it doesn't, it also means that you're not holding anything to be too

sacred it means you have strong views that are loosely held and so when you build a

culture of experimentation where winds are nice but failures are also very good too because you're ultimately learning.

That's how you're going to iterate and that's how you're going to compel on because when you think about

conversion rate optimization for example, all you're trying to do sometimes is trying to hit some singles.

Occasionally you get a home run every now and then,

but that's what you're doing.

You're constantly iterating and if you can continue to hone that mindset,

then you're going to be good.

The problem with a lot of people is they might develop this culture of testing for a period of time,

but then they let it go and then their marketing starts to fall apart.

Dude, so I'm actually very similar to you. I believe that if you don't keep experimenting and testing, it's going to really break your marketing in the long run.

But I'm going to add a caveat to it because this is where I think people mess up.

And I'll give you a prime example of one. to it because this is where I think people mess up.

And I'll give you a prime example of one of my older businesses.

So we had a startup years ago called Kiss Metrics.

...