I think you've hit on this issue of the post-9-11 shift has really supercharged the idea of us and them, you know, or the idea of once you can apply a terrorism label to an opponent, that's it. It's over for them. And basically everything is allowed. They're not allowed to do anything in terms of firing back.

So that's the American model, which, and I wrote, I think I wrote an article about this in the UCLA Law Review,

about how that, you know, the UN terrorism system is largely based on the American kind of construct.

And at the heart of it is this idea that the terrorist organization is so tainted by its

terrorist classification that literally it can do nothing legitimate.

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Maghasi Street podcast.

We're delighted today to be joined by our cousin, Wadiah Saeed, who is Professor of Law and Dean's Faculty Fellow at the University of Colorado School of Law.

Wadilla is the author of a book on Federal Terrorism Prosecution, as well as many law review articles and book chapters

on the intersection of criminal law, international law, and the construct that the discourse really

around terrorism. He's also a former federal public defender, assistant public defender,

I'm sorry, and member of the American Law Institute. And as I said earlier, he is our cousin, which means, in effect, that he is basically our fourth brother. So for those of you who follow the show who often comment that you like the wrap-up segment with the three of us at the end, where you're going to have four of us this time, in effect. So, Wadilla, welcome to the show. It's a pleasure to have you on. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Mabrouk on the podcast. I know it's been a great success, the world over, so I'm honored to be here. Insha Allah, inshallah. Thank you. I guess, Wadi, we might as well begin. This is going to be, it's going to end up being, I think, a

free flowing conversation, but why don't we begin with the present? Why don't we begin with

the dystopian present that we find ourselves in? And with the return of Donald Trump to the White

House, what do you like, what do you have initial thoughts, feelings, ideas, reactions?

Well, I mean, wow.

It's a big one I know.

I mean, dystopian is a word that everyone keeps using, but I mean, I think it's appropriate in this context.

What struck me the most, honestly, was yesterday when he was inaugurated by the Chief Justice of the United States,

who I'm not a big fan of in terms of his jurisprudence.

But still, you know, I'm used to the office being given its kind of full weight and gravitas.

So, you know, Trump has sworn in his president for the second time

hand on the Bible. Then he shakes the chief justice's hand. And then he says something to him and

...