Welcome to indoctrination, a weekly conversation series about protecting yourself from systems of control.

I'm your host, Rachel Bernstein.

I'm excited to have you hear the second part of my conversation with Jamie DeWolf today.

He is Elron Hubbard's great grandson, and he is a poet and a vaudevillian,

and a writer and a filmmaker and a teacher, and a humanitarian, and a father. And he's someone who has

decided to help people get empowered and he's a father. And he's someone who has decided to help people get empowered. And he's someone who's also

decided to educate people to the best of his ability about cults and systems of control. And he carries

the weight of having this family legacy,

and he takes it to heart,

and he wants to do what he can to do his part

to undo some of the damage done by his great-grandfather

and the group that he started.

Here's Jamie DeWolf now.

So this idea of there being an enemy to go back to a couple things that you're saying,

I learn so much from talking with you in the way that you phrase things.

And a couple thoughts. One is this idea

that they really attack former members. I know they attack a lot of people who are helping people

also who like me who are helping former members. But I think having somebody leave is such a blow to the cult leader's ego that it proves that they don't have ultimate control and they can't sustain ultimate control over that person and it's no longer working.

And I think that's devastating.

And so with a lot of people who can't handle those feelings of being devastated,

they will go on the offense, so they're not on the defense because they really actually have

to defend their fragile internal ego. So yes, I really feel for the people born and raised

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