This is the waves. This is the waves. This is the waves. This is the waves. Welcome to the waves. Slates

podcast about gender feminism and getting paid. Every episode you get a new pair of feminists to

talk about the thing we cannot get off our minds. And today you've got me Emily Peck,

markets correspondent at Axios and co-host of Slate Money. And me Phoebe Gavin, a career coach and

executive director of talent and development for Vox.com. I am so excited for this conversation.

Today we're here to talk about a kind of still somewhat maybe a little taboo topic,

which is of course getting paid, the art of salary negotiation. Despite all the stories,

you may have read over the years and what a lot of people might have you think. And maybe this

is controversial. I'm here to tell you we work to make money. And women, as listeners already

know, tend to make less of the money because of paid discrimination, because of caregiving needs

at home, because they might be in lower paying professions or allegedly because they didn't negotiate

for more. I've written about salary negotiation and the gender pay gap for a long time. But best of

all, Phoebe knows a lot about this. So I wanted to hear all your tips and advice.

So this is a topic I can't stop thinking about because even as we work so hard to dismantle

the structural barriers and redesign the cultural dynamics, women and non-binary people still have

to figure out how to get paid right here right now in this deeply flawed system that is still

very much docked against them. And there are so many additional layers as well. I'm a black woman

from a low income background, which adds two more layers of disadvantage as I've worked on my

own career to be compensated properly for the value I created for my employers. There was no

one to hold my hand or point me in the right direction as I built my professional profile because

no one in my family had that knowledge. So I had to figure it out on my own with lots of research

and trial and error. And I got very, very lucky to get some help from experts outside my immediate

...