Your Listen. You're listening to Robert Wright's Non-Zero Podcast.

Hi, Jerome.

Hi, Bob.

Great to be here.

Great to have you. I appreciate you taking the time. You're very busy. Let me introduce us. I'm Robert Wright, publisher of Non Zero Newsletter. This is the Non Zero podcast. You are Daron Asimoglu, a very well-known economist and author. You're at MIT. Some years ago, you had a best-selling

book called Why Nations Fail, which you co-authored with James Robinson. Now, this year,

you've co-authored with a different co-author, Simon Johnson, a book called Power and Progress,

our thousand years struggle over technology and prospect. co-author, Simon Johnson, a book called Power and Progress, Our Thousand Years Struggle Over Technology and Prosperity, and that is very relevant to the current debate over the likely

consequences of AI, which I'm very interested in. And separate from that, a couple of years

ago, you wrote a paper called Harms of AI.

I guess that's why you were working on this book.

And although the book is most obviously relevant to the question of like impact on jobs,

the paper you wrote is much more broad ranging.

So maybe we'll have time to get into some of the other

I would love to.

AI issues.

So let me set up part of the conversation, both about your book and the jobs issue,

this way, a conversation, a kind of debate I've heard more than once since AI became a big topic of

conversation is it'll be between somebody who's concerned about the impact on jobs, somebody

who's not concerned.

The person who's not concerned says, look, technological change.

Yes, it always eliminates some jobs, but it creates

...