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If Boris Johnson is forced out of office by his own MPs, people will undoubtedly say,

well, he broke the rules that he set by going to those parties.

It will, in truth, be quite a lot more complicated than that.

It will be because those very COVID rules and regulations,

the curbing of people's liberties, the refusal to trust people to behave responsibly, the damage

done to business, ballooning public spending and soaring tax bills, have convinced many,

including my guest on political thinking, that the Conservative Party is no longer

behaving as if it's conservative. Steve Baker is part Shop Stewart, part conscience of the Tory

Brexiteer right. As leader of the ERG, the European Research Group, he tormented Theresa May. As

leader of the CRG, the COVID recovery group,

he's harried those calling for lockdowns and vaccine passes and compulsory masks.

Last time we spoke on political thinking, three long years ago, he told me his job was to herd

the tigers. So which way will he heard them now? Steve Baker,

welcome back to political thinking. Well, Nick, thank you very much indeed for having me on

and giving me that terrifying introduction. I was very nervous on the first one we did and I'm

slightly worried about what you'll ask me this time, but the last podcast was a great success.

So thank you for it and thank you to everybody who's listened to it.

Well, last time we spoke, a month later, Theresa May fell.

She was toppled.

Here we are again.

Yeah, it's a sorry situation we're in.

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