This is Thinking in Public, a program dedicated to intelligent conversation about frontline theological and cultural issues with the people who are shaping them.

I'm Albert Moller, your host and president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

Joe Rigney serves as Fellow of Theology at New St. Andrews College.

He received a Master of Arts from Bethlehem College in seminary and a Ph.D Fellow of Theology at New St. Andrews College. He received a Master of Arts

from Bethlehem College in Seminary and a PhD in Theology from the University of Chester.

Prior to serving at New St. Andrews, Professor Rigney served as president of Bethlehem

College and Seminary in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and is a pastor at City's Church in St. Paul,

Minnesota. He's the author of many books,

including Live Like a Narnian, The Things of Earth, and Leadership and Emotional Sabotage.

It's his most recent book, The Sin of Empathy, Compassion, and Its Counterfeits that is the topic of

our conversation today. Joe Ridney, welcome to thinking in public.

Thanks for having me.

Joe, I have to tell you, you have intentionally hit a hornet's nest here, and that's why we're

having this conversation.

So what is it with you in empathy?

We have a long and storied history, and I wasn't hugged enough as a child, I think is really what it goes

back to. No. I think that's what most reviewers are going to suspect. That is. You know,

although it's interesting, in all of the, all of the blowback I've taken over the last eight years

or so over this, nobody's ever asked about my feelings. Everybody's very concerned about other

people's feelings. my feelings have never been

concerned no uh you know i really got into this um about 10 or so years ago uh i read a book by

edwin friedman called a failure of nerve i was teaching a leadership class i think actually it's

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