Welcome to the art of accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.

I'm Brett Kisler, here today with my co-host, Joe Hudson.

So Joe, a lot of times when we're diagnosing something that's going on in a team or we're seeing the dynamics happening in a group

within a course, there will be some primary dynamic where there's some kind of conflict or

maybe there's some trigger or some kind of argument or projections going around. And there will

often be an underlying secondary dynamic. And often what seems to be going on there, we've come to call it the

shame hot potato. And we haven't talked about that yet on the podcast directly. So I'd love to do

this episode on the shame hot potato. Oh, I'd love that. Yeah. And let's give credit to where

credits do. I think that it's Tara who came up with that phrase.

I think Tara was the one who came up with the shame hot potato. Yeah, I would love that.

I think that's so good because it's not just group dynamics where this like happens.

It's also in a lot of marriages. Just, I was just talking to two folks in our community who are not yet married and

got pregnant. And like the whole thing was about the shame hot potato, like how they are

triggering each other's shame and how that just keeps this conflict going and going and going and going and going.

Great. So let's define it. What would you define as the shame hop potato? What is this, what are the outlines of this dynamic?

Yeah. Somebody wants to make somebody else ashamed or is defending themselves in such a way that

puts shame on somebody or the person just feels ashamed and here's whatever the other person

is saying ass shame right so whatever but they feel shame they don't want to feel it so they try to hand it to the other person is saying ass shame, right? So whatever. But they feel shame. They don't want to feel it.

So they try to hand it to the other person, right?

Which is something we do generally with a lot of emotions.

You know, somebody gets anxious and then they like try to hand off their anxiety to people or someone gets angry and they try to like get they get angry at a lot of people.

This would be like people trying to get like

...