Rumours of ministerial reshuffles are never far away in Westminster and few days capture the imagination

quite like a reshuffle. Well, the IFG's imagination anyway. So how do they work? What should ministers

fear? What should the PM avoid?

When do the rechuffles go right? And why do they sometimes go wrong? Given the summer is often a time

when ministers are reflecting on their roles and might also be reflecting on the jobs they'd like to have,

or how to keep the ones they are in, we thought this was a good moment to explore the art of a reshuffle.

Kirstama has so far taken good IFG advice and let his ministers get on with doing the job,

but at some point the Prime Minister will turn his mind to how to change his top team.

So I hope he's listening.

Because I'm joined by a fantastic trio of guests who have had a

front row seat of government reshuffles and know exactly how they work. Cleo Watson is a former

special advisor to Boris Johnson. Hello, Cleo. Hello, thanks for having me. Helen McNamara was

Director General of Approprietary in Ethics and then Deputy Cabinet Secretary. Hello, Helen.

Hello, Helen. Hello, Karen.

And Tim Durant leads our minister's work and has written many words on why reshuffles are to be approached with care.

Hello, Tim.

Hi, Kath.

Okay, let's start.

You've all worked in government.

I want to start with when was your first reshuffle and what role did you play with it.

Helen, I'm kind of feeling like you might be

the first. No offence. So the first proper reshuffle reshuffle would have been when I was in

...