This is Paul Adamson and I'm in conversation with Lord Mandelson.

Peter Mandelson is a former First Secretary of State of the United Kingdom and a former European Trade Commissioner.

Peter, I don't want to talk too much about the past, but I don't want to start by talking about the Remain campaign.

You were a key player there.

You chaired various strategy committee meetings of the Remain campaign.

So with the benefit of hindsight, what are the main lessons that you learn from your

experience during the Remain campaign?

Well, one lesson, of course, I can say this from a rather operational point of view,

is that I wish we had had a

strategy committee and I wish I had chaired it. Unfortunately we didn't at the time and the campaign

which was planned by a number of us created fundraise the governance of it, the structure, the recruitment,

the wall book, all the staples of the campaign

were put in place, but once the referendum was called and we were off, it was taken over

by number 10, notably by the Prime Minister and his staff and the Chancellor and his staff.

And they jumped very firmly into the driving

seat. What are the lessons I draw from it? I think the following. The main one is that if

you're going to have a referendum about Europe, anywhere in Europe, then you have got, during the course of that referendum,

to talk about Europe, make the case for Europe, and answer those who believe that nationalism,

national sovereignty, sort of a national exclusiveness, are the answers to anything in the 21st century?

Because the case that was made by the Leave campaign and their slogan, their headline, was take back control.

Well, you've got to make an argument about that.

First of all, that we have not lost control over events.

...