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This is the Tom Hartman program.

On the line with us is Dr. Gabor Mate, a physician specializing in addiction and trauma,

public speaker, the author of five books. In fact, we spoke with them about

in the realm of hungry ghosts. One of his most recent books is new one is called The Myth of Normal,

and this is a fascinating work. Welcome back to the program. It's been a while since we've spoken,

and it's great to have you with us. Why The Myth of Normal?

Well, I have to say, first of all, thank you for having me, Tom, and the name is Gabor.

Forget the Dr. Matthew. You were a bit modest in not mentioning the subtitle of my book,

Trauma Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture. When I say you're a bit modest,

this is actually stole the subtitle from you, in the sense that in your book, the last

hours of ancient sunshine, I think you talked about a culture can be either toxic or nourishing,

murderous or nurturing, and I lifted that toxic culture directly from you, so thank you very much.

You're welcome. I'm honored.

But why The Myth of Normal? It's precisely because what this culture takes to be normal

is actually unhealthy and unnatural in its toxic to use your phrase. As a physician,

...