Hi, Bill Kristol here. Welcome to Bullwork on Sunday. I'm very pleased to be joined today by Rob Flaherty, who wrote a terrific piece for the bulwark on Thursday, I think it was, Thursday morning, and has gotten a lot of well-deserved attention.

Rob was deputy campaign manager of the Biden campaign and the Harris campaign, particularly in charge of digital media. And this was a piece in which Rob laid out what he would have told, what he did tell, I guess, the DNC autopsy, which, however, has never appeared.

So good to have your thoughts memorialized in the bulwark. A very interesting piece on many accounts, actually, in terms of digital media, the future of a lot of aspects of campaigning.

But I thought we'd focus today on some of the bigger picture conclusions you draw on the first part of your piece. But everyone should go read the piece. It's on the bulwark website. Anyway, Rob, thanks for, thanks for joining me today. Bill, thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. And thanks for the piece, which is really interesting. So, yeah, here's what I told the DNC autopsy.

People want to look it up and should read it.

So let's talk about some of the things you've been around, I should say, for, you're very young, but you've been involved in politics for quite a while. I think you began as a student, right, at I think of I think of a major college.

I remember reading about this

Ethica mayor's race where some outsider won't

an upset victory and there were a couple

of key student players and helping organize that and that was now I discover that was

you, right?

It was, it was the inmates running the asylum.

I'm curious, I always tell young people, this is a bit of a diversion, but why not?

I don't know.

I was not involved that much in campaigns when I was young and, you know, I was academic, getting my PhD and all this nonsense. But the, I always advise young people to go work on campaigns. I think you can learn a ton. And also, they're so fluid and you can rise much faster if you're good and you're not in a little box the way you are

in a kind of corporate structure. That's not quite so much true of a presidential campaign,

obviously, but certainly a local campaign. I'm curious. Do you agree with that?

Is that good advice? And do you, what did you learn from that?

Campaigns are the best. They, they're pressure croakers. You build great relationships with people.

You learn like the softest skills of like how to like you know work with a lot of sort of people who are both different and the

same as you so I tell everybody it's like the best thing you can do and I think it like you know it sounds

schmooopee or, but like working as,

...