Desecration becomes the primary means of realizing our freedom on autonomy.

Ironically, as I make the point in the book,

as we assert our freedom and autonomy, as we assert our divine greatness,

we have somewhat perversely ended up thinking of ourselves as nothing much in particular.

Hey, everyone.

Hey, everyone, it's Andrew Claven with this week's interview with Carl Truman, who I believe now is going to set a record for appearances on my interviews.

It may be, maybe Spencer Claven has beat him out, but I keep having him back because he keeps writing these good books.

I'm frankly, I'm sick of it, but I think they're just so, they's not so compelling. They are so compelling and clear. And he has such a grasp of the, uh, of the way ideas work and how they

change, how we live. Uh, he teaches at Grove City College. He's a professor of Grove City College,

though he has been at Notre Dame for the past few months. And he is, uh, the author of the and Triumph of the Modern Self, which is how I first discovered him. But his new book is called The Desecration of Man, How the Rejection of God Degrades Our Humanity. Carl, it's great to see you again. How are you doing? I'm doing very well, Andrew. Thanks for having me on. I didn't realize I was a record holder. I think you I think

you may be the record holder. You've got to just stop writing these good books because every time I read

one of them. I think I got to talk to this guy. But this is this is a particularly compelling

book and it's actually in some ways it is a continuation of the rise and triumph of the modern

self which Ben Shapiro just thought was

the book of the decade. He just loved that book, and so did I. But this is taking it to a new

step. I mean, one of the things that is wonderful about reading you is you actually speak

English and write in English. And so you use words carefully and desecration for those people who don't know means

taking something that is sacred and mistreating it and dragging it into the dirt.

So let's start with that.

What do you mean by the desecration of man?

Yeah, well, put simply, I mean that man is made in the image of God, and we live in an

era where we take a perverse pleasure, really, in dismantling and destroying what it means

...