Welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. We have a guest with us today. He's actually been on the podcast one time before, and that is Pastor Michael Clary. He is the pastor at Christ the King Church, which is in Fort Thomas, Kentucky, in the Cincinnati area. He's also the author of now at least two books. I know we had him on to talk about God's good design, which is about sexuality and what the Bible

teaches on male-female relationships. But he has a new book coming out. They don't have a title yet,

but it's coming out through Canon Press. So keep an eye on that. That's going to be about

loser theology. So I'm excited to hear more about that. He's also a Southern Baptist pastor and the

contributing scholar,

one of them, at the Center for Baptist Leadership. And so I thought he'd be a great person to have

on to talk about not just the Southern Baptist Convention, but also the North American Mission Board.

And as we unfold the program, we will both reveal more about why the North American Mission Board

has been such a

concern for Southern Baptists. And really quick, for those who don't know, Southern Baptists have

various entities, meaning they have seminaries and missions organizations. And NAM is a church

planning organization in North America. So they actually go and plant churches in areas that presumably don't

have a gospel witness or a solid gospel witness. I'm big into some church revitalization and

those kinds of things. And they are one of the entities that I think is I hear more about than any

of the other ones, even the seminaries. I hear more about

the problems going on with NAM, but often those things are from people who can't tell me details

publicly. They don't want me to share their story. They don't come on the podcast or it's, I heard this

from someone. And so it's like, what do you do with that, right? Well, there are some things we can sink our teeth into, and I think it's important we talk about them. And Michael Clary has just written an article at Christ overall, which is called More Money Than Men, the NAM church planting problem. And so we're going to start our conversation there. Welcome, Pastor Clary. Thank you for

helping us understand this issue. Happy to be with you, John. Thanks for having me. Really quick,

before we even get started with this, share with us a little bit about where you're at with the

Southern Baptist Convention. Do you sense some hope? What can you tell the folks who are Southern

Baptist out there who maybe still

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