A lot of intellectuals, architects particularly attack the grove as fake or contrived, but more people

visit the grove and visit Disneyland, more than the Great Wall of China, and it's delivering something of value that those people want.

In addition to delivering kind of a sense of escapism, it really delivers community.

And again, I call it really delivers community.

And again, I call that a temporary community.

I'll acknowledge that's not a community that's there forever,

but it's a community you can pop in and out of

without any effort. I'm Mary Long and that's Kevin Irvin Kelly,

an architect, experienced designer, and the author of Irreplacable, how to create extraordinary places that

bring people together.

My colleague Deidre Willard caught up with Kelly to talk about the invisible forces that

draw you to certain retailers, how a lost Main Street built modern shopping

centers, and how Harley-Davidson stores transformed after designers watched the Parts Guy. Really enjoyed the book, had me thinking a lot about place because it's about architecture, but not in a traditional sense.

It's really about the way buildings make you feel and how businesses can be more intentional in cultivating feelings.

So share with us some of the cues that we may not even notice when we're entering retail spaces.

Yeah, I think we forget we're in place.

It's kind of like that old joke that says, he has a younger fish, you you know how's the water and he says what's water I think

we don't really think of the idea of place because we're always in a place no

matter where we are or never unplaced and so we don't really think about it and as we get up in our day and walk around our world

we don't really have a walking plan we just walk naturally and we look naturally

kind of what we call involuntary mechanisms and we only we only kick in the

voluntary things when it makes sense to kick in and so we're just

...