Hey, Gideon.

Hey, Tyler.

Thanks for coming back so quickly.

Thank you for having me.

Would you say that your reporting on AI has made you more freaked out about AI potentially being used in military operations, or are you less freaked out?

Oh, significantly more freaked out.

Part of it is just that, yes, it seems to allow us to unleash

the forces of destruction on a much greater scale.

Then, of course, there's the question of, like, the game theory of this,

which is, like, if we are doing this then

certainly our adversaries are going to be working on doing this kind of thing and then finally

there's the much more ticklish question of to what extent can we like once we have trained it

to produce this amount of devastation to what extent are we really ultimately able to control?

That's Gideon Lewis Krause, a staff writer at The New Yorker.

Last month, Gideon came on the podcast to talk about Anthropic, a company that has committed

to developing an AI that's grounded into principles of ethics and safety. But just days after Gideon came on the show, reports began to emerge that the Department of Defense had allegedly used Claude,

Anthropic series of large language models, in military actions in Venezuela, and later Iran, potentially without the company's knowledge.

Recently, when Anthropic tried to put guardrails around the way that the Pentagon is using their technology,

Pete Hagseth and other DOD officials bristled, leading to a wild escalation in which the Pentagon

labeled Anthropic a supply chain risk, essentially blacklisting the company.

Anthropic is now suing in response.

I wanted to talk with Gideon about what we actually know

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