BBC Sounds, music radio podcasts.

Welcome back to a new series of political thinking, a conversation with, rather than an interrogation of,

someone who shapes our political thinking about what

has shaped theirs. Quite a lot has changed since we were last on air. That landslide

labor victory to name but one. Now speak to any labor insider and

they'll tell you that my guest today was at the heart of that victory.

Pat McFadden was labor's campaign coordinator and he is now at the heart of

Kia Starmer's governing project. He's what's called Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.

We'll discover in a few minutes exactly what that means.

But it does mean that he's key to delivering that promise on the front page of Labor's manifesto change.

And one reason he got the job is that it's not the first time he's been at the heart of government.

He was Tony Blair's political secretary 20 odd years ago.

Pat McFadden, welcome back to political thinking.

Good to be here.

I want to know what was it like on the night of the election that exit poll comes in at 10 o'clock how

was it for you it was an enormous relief. I was sitting in my house in Wolverhampton where I'd been campaigning during the day and in the nearby target seat for us in Dudley and it's such a moment.

I remember looking at the clock and it's five minutes to ten, it's four minutes to ten and

then it just flashes up and the emotion was relief, not ecstasy, just after so many years out of power,

after so many lost elections that we'd done it. And relief also because you

not deluded yourself, you hadn't kid you yourself, it was real.

It was real and it's a curious psychology in a campaign because the polls didn't really move very much during the campaign and so

throughout the campaign made these polls saying you're ahead or ahead but the Labour

...