For centuries, Christians have debated the doctrine of total depravity,

the belief that people are naturally corrupt and stained by sin at birth,

a sin that permeates every facet of our being.

Reform theology upholds this doctrine, arguing that it's essential

for a true understanding of humanity's need for a

Savior and a full appreciation of God's grace. But other Christians disagree. My guest today is

Jonathan Gibson, and in our conversation, he unpacks what he considers to be one of the most

misunderstood doctrines of the Christian faith, answering common questions and engaging with

common objections that Christians often have.

Jonathan is an ordained minister in the International Presbyterian Church, UK, an associate

professor of Old Testament at Westminster Theological Seminary.

He's also a co-editor and contributor to a new book from Crossway called Ruin

Sinners to Reclaim, Sin and Depravity in Historical, Biblical, Theological, and Pastoral

Perspective. Let's get started.

Well, Johnny, thanks for joining me again on the Crossplay podcast.

It's good to be with you again, Matt.

So in his forward to your new book, Michael Horton writes,

Total Depravity is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of the Christian faith.

So to start us off, I wonder if you agree with that sentiment. I would agree with

it, and I think it's because we tend to think from the title, total depravity, that it means that we

are as depraved as we possibly could be. And that's one of the myths about total depravity or one of the misunderstandings.

The doctrine of total depravity is not saying that as sinful human beings, we are as sinful

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