Wundery Plus subscribers can binge the newest season of even the rich before anyone else.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. From Wundery, I'm Brooke Sifrin.

And I'm Ereia Skidmar Williams.

And this is even the rich.

Over the last four episodes, we followed Madonna as she went from a couch surfing

aspiring dancer in New York to a record-breaking rock-and-roll Hall of Famer.

But Madonna's story isn't over yet. She's still working, making music,

and reminding us all that no one does it quite

like the Queen of Pop.

Exactly.

Nothing slows Madonna down.

And she's hard at work on the next chapter in her ongoing evolution.

Now we know how Madonna got here but we don't know as much about how she stayed here, especially given all the criticism she received.

Right, so today we're talking to author Roxanne Gay about sexuality in the 1980s,

ageism in the music industry, and what makes Madonna a bad feminist.

Roxanne Gay is a writer, co-host of the Loominary Podcast, Here to Slayer, and the author behind

several books, including the New York Times bestseller Bad Feminist.

Before we get to that, though, I feel like we should talk about our own relationship to Madonna.

Like I feel like everybody has their Madonna moment where they first discovered her right?

Oh 100% my first memory of Madonna that like really was like this is Madonna she's on the

map in my head,

was the music video for a material girl.

...