Giday, humans. Welcome to the safe space for dangerous ideas. Here's an uncomfortable

question for you. Could the gains of the gay rights movement over the past few decades

be reversed in coming decades by the Christian right, by changing attitudes of conservative

migrant communities, by the gay rights's strategy at the moment of hitching itself to an

unpopular LGBTQIA plus ideology that many people are more suspicious of than they were of the original requests

of the gay rights activists.

Ronan McCrae has written a book about this.

He's a professor of Constitution on European law at University College London.

He lectures on the relationship between religion and law.

He's a former barrister, a lawyer for the refugee legal center and an assistant

to a judge in the European Court of Justice. His new book is called The End of the Gay Rights

Revolution, How Hubris and Overreach Threaten Gay Freedom. I hope you enjoy as much as I did,

Ronan McCrae.

What's interesting, I think, or maybe striking for the way that you frame gay rights is that you don't really regard the ascendancy and the success of the gay rights revolution as being something that we

should analyze outside of the context of all of the other social changes that were happening in the

1960s through to the 1980s um and you have this funny uh comparison with estonian liberation and

gay rights liberation.

Do you want to make that case?

Yeah, sure.

So, yeah, one of the core points the book is that we have to see gay rights as basically

an incidental side effect of wider changes in and.

As I say, right, you're right to say it's like like Estonian independence. Estonians had to fight hard

...