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What the data do consistently show is that burnout affects far more women than men. But it also shows that this

burnout doesn't have anything to do with not being in your feminine or any other manufactured

claim of quote unquote natural gender differences. Instead, what this burnout reflects is the vastly unequal demands women still face in the process of working to realize their professional and personal ambitions relative to men, particularly cis, straight, white, able-bodied men.

Stephanie O'Connell Rodriguez is a writer covering ambition, money, and power. She was the host of Real Simple Magazine's Money Confidential podcast, and her forthcoming book, The Ambition Penalty, Exposes the Social, Professional, and Financial costs that women face when asking for more. So think chapter two of rich girl nation,

but like an entire book, just about that. And she offers us a new way forward. I wanted to talk

to Stephanie this week because I had admittedly fallen down a little bit of a rabbit hole of her

talking head style videos in which she discusses the implications of various economic papers.

And at one point, as I'm sitting there at my computer going through each one,

I literally said out loud, holy shit, this is a gold mine.

I don't know what this woman's process is for finding these papers, but incredible.

So selfishly, and sometimes I think this makes for the best conversations,

I just want to learn from somebody. I find somebody's approach to a problem really interesting,

and I want to understand how they are thinking about it. So today, I just wanted to learn from

her, and I think you are probably going to learn a lot too. She is at heart a researcher, and she is bringing

us a wealth of data today. Now, one thing that you'll hear me say to her in the interview is that

sometimes going through data like this gets a little tiresome to me because we know a lot of this

is true.

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