Hello, it's Ilya Maritz with the Trump Inc. podcast Extra.

Trump Inc. of course is a joint reporting project by ProPublica and WNYC.

Back in February, we did an episode on alternative financing.

This is the idea that Donald Trump couldn't always pay for his real estate deals through

traditional bank loans, so we found other ways to raise cash.

It's a theory put forward by Glenn Simpson, founder of the research firm Fusion GPS.

It's the company behind the infamous dossier on Trump and Russia.

Simpson told Congress, when you look closely at the numbers, golf courses that Trump purchased

in Ireland and Scotland, they don't make a lot of business sense.

Here are Glenn Simpson's words read by actor Kelly O'Coin.

An enormous amount of capital flowing into these projects from unknown sources.

And or at least on paper, it says it's from the Trump organization.

And it's hundreds of millions of dollars.

And these golf courses are just, you know, they're sinks.

They don't actually make any money.

So you know, if you're familiar with Donald Trump's finances and the litigation over whether

he's really a billionaire, you know, there's good reason to believe that he doesn't have

enough money to do this.

We're going to talk now with two journalists who've spent a lot of time thinking about this

question of how Donald Trump paid for his properties.

David Ferrenthold just published an article looking at Trump's deals in the nine years before

he ran for president, along with his Washington Post co-writers Jack Gillum and Jonathan O'Connell,

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