From the New York Times, this is the interview. I'm David Marquesie.

Last fall, George Saunders was awarded the National Book Foundation's Medal for Distinguished

Contribution to American Letters. In the speech introducing him, in addition to a glowing rundown of his

literary resume, which includes the 2017 Booker Prize-winning novel, Lincoln in the Bardo,

he was also called the ultimate teacher of kindness and craft. Pretty good, right? Well, mostly.

The craft art isn't the problem.

Saunders, who is 67, has been a revered teacher in Syracuse's prestigious creative writing MFA program since 1996.

His 2021 bestseller, A Swim at a Pond in the Rain, was a distillation of his teaching, featuring close readings of Russian short stories.

And out of that book came a substack called Story Club with George Saunders, where he continues to teach,

answers reader letters, and shares writing exercises with more than 300,000 followers.

He also has a new novel out this month called Vigil, about a cantankerous oil tycoon on his deathbed.

It's the kindness part, though, where things can get a little tricky.

In 2013, Saunders gave a convocation speech to Syracuse graduates all about the power of practicing kindness.

That speech went viral and then was repackaged as the best-selling book titled Congratulations, by the way.

The success of that speech has wound up casting Saunders into a kind of self-helpy guru of goodness role,

which is frankly a little strange given the satirical bite of his fiction.

And it's also just kind of an odd thing for someone to have to live with,

because as he explained in our conversation, he's just as fallible and flawed as the rest of us and as his unforgettable characters.

Here's my interview with George Saunders.

George, thanks for taking the time to be here today.

Oh, thanks for having me. It's great.

You know, I have to start with a confession and an apology.

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