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From KQED.

And we continue our conversation in this hour of forum.

And for the rest of the hour, we're talking about a woman who, some would say, was one of the more consequential and controversial first ladies in modern U.S. history.

Starting when her husband was governor of California and later when he was president, Nancy Reagan transformed the role of political spouse in many ways.

Washington Post political columnist Karen Tumultumulty writes about it in her new biography.

It's titled The Triumph of Nancy Reagan.

Karen Tommelty, thanks for joining us.

Great to be here.

Well, let me just begin by asking you about that title.

What exactly is the triumph of Nancy Reagan? Well, I think that this is a book

that, as you mentioned, charts the trajectory of a very controversial first lady. But I think the

triumph in the title both implies the setbacks and, you know, the pain in her life of which

there was quite a bit, but also how she ultimately really did play an instrumental role in both

the rise of one of the most consequential figures of the 20th century, uh, in the success of his presidency.

And, you know, I point to a number of places where, um, Ronald Reagan's presidency might have gone

...