Good morning. Good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are. And welcome to the politics guys with your host, Jay Carson and Michael Baranowski.

Welcome to the politics guys. I'm Michael Baranowski, a political scientist at Northern Kentucky University.

My guest today is Jeremy Hale, co-author of The Indivisible Guide, a practical guide to influencing members of Congress,

written by a team of former congressional staffers. From 2008 to 2012, Jeremy served as a legislative aide to Representative Lloyd Doggett,

along with individual board members, Ezra Levin, and Sarah Dole.

Since then, Jeremy has worked in criminal justice reform advocacy at the Sentencing Project

and as a public interest lawyer in San Francisco.

His writing has appeared in numerous national publications and outlets, including the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, and NPRs, all things considered. Jeremy Hale, welcome to the show.

Hey, Mike. Good to be with you. You know, I'd like to start by talking a little bit about your background. For four years, you were a legislative aid to a member of Congress,

and I'm wondering, what exactly does that job involve? Sure. Well, I was a legislative assistant

or legislative counsel, which basically means that I handled a portfolio of different policy

areas, so judiciary, banking, trade, and so on. So I met with

constituents, tracked mail, advised the congressman on votes, drafted legislation. I guess that's

the answer you would expect. But working in a congressional office is often unpredictable.

So whether you're the senior legislative staffer or a junior

aide, you could be asked at any time to take a meeting or draft a speech or run a document to a

hearing room. I remember on my very first day as an intern, I met with lawyers for a famous

Russian political prisoner. I'm not sure they were thrilled to be meeting with me.

But I think responsibility is spread out both because it's efficient

and because it keeps information and power,

power especially diffuse throughout the office.

So after all those year, after those four years,

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