Hello there. This is Mark Bowerline with another conversation. Before we get to it, a word about one of our sponsors.

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James Ellis III is a pastor.

He is a writer and a web interview host.

His previous book is Tell the Truth, Shame the Devil,

stories about the challenges of young pastors.

His new book is An Inward Outward Witness, Suffering's role in forming faithful preachers. Welcome, Pastor Ellis.

Thanks so much for having me. All right. Well, you begin with a strong assertion. God's thoughts

are not ours, nor are God's ways ours. Do you think this is one of these stumbling blocks for

21st century individuals in America in really coming to and living out the faith?

I do. I do. I mean, you have to start with all of humanity, just in that we all struggle with

the notion that God doesn't think or behave or

...