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321. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I'm Robert Krollwich. This is Radio Lab. And for today,

we're going to begin with a conversation we had actually quite a while ago. I would benefit

from a little bit of framing about kind of what we're, like our goal of this session. Sure, we

can frame it. You make you blab a lot and then we edit it later. Right. That's kind of it. It's a conversation that we had with a reporter. I see, someone we used to work with. Yeah, ex-intern. One of our great interns who's gone off in the world. Amy O'Leary is her name. Amy O'Leary is her name. She, at the time, was a New York Times reporter, but is now the editorial director

of Upworthy. So this started actually through a personal interest. So I was in a relationship

with an alcoholic and was very open about that, talked about it with all my friends. Were you

open with him about it too? Yeah. I mean, he was in some denial and but yeah, I was, I mean,

I regularly would tell him, hey,

like, you have a problem with this. And, you know, and he would be clear back and say, you know, if you're going to make me choose between me and vodka, I'm going to choose vodka. So he would say that, really? He did say that once, yeah. Wow. And I was, you know, young, but every night after 11 o'clock my life became shitty.

Without getting into a lot of detail, there were fights, arguments, a lot of rage. And I didn't know what to do and felt really out of control. And, you know, I'd been to Al-Anon meetings and it just seemed like this, like, terrible, tragic problem that, like, a really smart, cool person would turn really awful on you. But then one day, Amy found herself in Barnes & Noble on Union Square.

Union Square, I think I'm on the third floor, and there was a table of mostly self-help books,

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