Hello and welcome to rock and roll politics, the podcast with me, Steve Richards.

Thank you very much for tuning in. And as ever,

we've got a lot to cram in in our time together. If it's okay with all of you, I'm going to

reflect briefly on whether there is a crossover between the defeat of Orban in Hungary

and the threat posed by the populist right, especially in

Britain, but of course elsewhere, Germany, France and other parts of Europe. And then we come to some

brilliant questions from all of you. There's a lot going on. There's a great interest in the 70s

and that kind of era and what the lessons are the last time, of course, when there was a real profound energy crisis.

So we'll come to those very shortly.

But first of all, the fall of Orban, of course, many people horrified by the rise of reform here, the dominance of Trump in the

United States and so on, dare to wonder whether there are ways of exposing the populist right

in the way that Modja has done with such success in Hungary. And I wonder, because of two things. First of all,

each election is unique. Neil Kinnock always says about British general elections. You know,

is it 74, is it 1992, is it 1997? You know, when we try and make sense of the next election by linking it to one in the

past. And he's always saying to me and others, each election is unique. And of course, that applies

when you try and extract from, say, Hungary situations in Britain or elsewhere. And this one has two things, which we know to be key

factors. One, incumbency. Orban had been ruling for years and years, and when you run a corrupt

autocratic regime, at some point, voters turn.

There is a fascinating question as to when, how long it takes.

He's been ruling for a long time in Hungary.

And it took, to some extent, though he probably would have fallen under different circumstances,

this challenge from a kind of fresh-faced figure who didn't really challenge

...