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The David Frum Show

The End of the American Empire

The David Frum Show

The Atlantic

Politics, News, News Commentary

4.62.4K Ratings

🗓️ 19 November 2025

⏱️ 59 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

On this episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the recent gifts given to President Donald Trump by the Swiss government. He argues that the incident is yet another example of Trump’s favor being won through personal gifts and another sign of how his administration has forced the United States to abandon its traditional leadership role in the global order, reshaping American foreign policy into something closer to that of an extractive predator state. David is then joined by Margaret MacMillan, emeritus professor of history at the University of Toronto and emeritus professor of international history at Oxford University, for a conversation about what a “post-American” world order might look like. They examine the United States’ retreat from global leadership under Trump, and consider whether the U.S. functions as an empire and whether that empire is now in decline. Finally, David closes with a discussion of what Charles Dickens’s “The Old Curiosity Shop” can teach us about grief. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

They say, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

0:09.5

The idea being that we only get better when we surround ourselves with people who are brighter,

0:14.0

more experienced, or more talented than we are.

0:16.6

My name is John Dick, and I'm never, ever in the wrong room.

0:19.9

At my company, Civic Science, the brightest minds in the world are studying people, culture, and I'm never, ever in the wrong room. At my company's civic science,

0:21.2

the brightest minds in the world are studying people, culture, and markets in revolutionary

0:25.2

new ways, providing glimpses into a future you've never seen before. Me? I drank my way

0:30.8

through a party school in college and only became an entrepreneur because I couldn't get a real

0:34.8

job doing anything else. I owe everything to a long list of colleagues,

0:38.9

mentors, and friends who made me better, or at least made me look better. So I started a podcast to

0:44.2

introduce you to some of the brilliant people I've encountered along the way. You'll meet

0:47.9

visionaries in business, technology, media, entertainment, even politics. They'll tell us how they see

0:53.0

the future and how they're making

0:54.6

it happen. But we'll also keep it real. You don't go through life with the last name Dick without

0:59.3

learning how to laugh at yourself. So we'll ask these incredibly successful people to share some of

1:03.8

their most embarrassing stories, their dumbest mistakes, and how they made them into the people they

1:08.2

are today. And we'll do all of that with data at the center of everything,

1:12.4

because the world has never been in greater need of truth.

1:15.3

And you can only get there with honest, objective, and reliable data,

1:19.6

which is what civic science is all about.

1:21.8

So please, subscribe to this show on your favorite podcast player.

1:25.7

Come listen to some of the smartest people I've ever met, and me, the dumbestomm Show. I'm David Frum, a staff writer at the Atlantic.

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