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Hello, you're listening to The Edition Podcast from The Spectator.

Every week we take a look at some of the most important and intriguing issues within our pages with the writers behind them.

I'm Cindy Yu.

This week, as calls to defund the police grow louder stateside and the Black Lives Matter protests make us rethink the police force here in the UK,

we ask, do the police really treat black people differently? And if so, why?

Also on the podcast, coronavirus may have pushed the US elections into the background, but they're

coming back again. From the perspective of the British government, would Joe Biden be a better

president? And last, it's become almost a cliche to say after coronavirus, we will X.

But will the pandemic really change anything with the way we live our lives?

I speak to a skeptic and an optimist.

First up, the police are in the news again.

In the issue this week, former police commissioner for Surrey, Kevin Hurley, writes about what it's like to be on the front lines and why so many young black people loathe the police.

He joins me down the line now, together with Katrina French, who is the chief executive of campaigning group Stop Watch, an organisation which works to raise awareness and campaign against

excessive use of force in stop and searches.

So Kevin, to start with, you write about this Batari box effect in your piece this week.

Can you tell us about what it is?

Well, basically, it's a psychological tool that describes the way in which people react to each other. So what it says is, what you do influences me.

So I will react to that and then influence you, and then you will react to that and influence me.

So it becomes a kind of spinning vicious circle.

...