From the historic campus of Hillsdale College in Hillsdale, Michigan, where the good, the true, and the beautiful are taught, nurtured, and honored.

This is the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, bringing the activity and education of the college to listeners across the country.

Madison at the beginning of the convention versus Madison, we read about in the federal's papers, make very different arguments.

But it's the same statesman and it's the same principles driving it.

But he's learned.

He's learned as he goes along, and he loses,

and then, of course, by losing, he ultimately wins. This is your host, Scott Bertram. Welcome to

the Radio Free Hillsdale Hour, part to the Hillsdale College Podcast Network. That was Dr. Matthew

Spalding, Vice President of Washington Operations and Dean of the Van Andal Graduate School of Government at Hillsdale in D.C.

With Independence Day just around the corner and also the anniversary of James Madison's death upon us, he died June 28, 1836.

We take time today to talk about James Madison pre-presidency,

specifically around the founding of our country. Dr. Spaulding, thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you. Great to be here. And we talk today from the Boyle studio inside the Kirby Center

at Hillsdale in D.C. I realize recently we've done this show for

five years or so now, and I don't think we have had a specific segment discussing the great

James Madison. We're changing that today. More early James Madison discussion today,

pre-presidency. Tell us early a bit about Madison's background and how does he enter the world of

politics. So, you know, when I heard this, of course, I immediately jumped at the opportunity because

James Madison is a fascinating figure. And I'm especially interested in James Madison before he becomes

James Madison, that is the, before he's president, that is the before he's president that

that period of the American Revolution Artists Confederation into the convention

the Federalist Papers partially because there's this amazing and really

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