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The Gray Area with Sean Illing

The crisis isn’t Trump. It’s the Republican Party.

The Gray Area with Sean Illing

Vox Media Podcast Network

Politics, News, Society & Culture, News Commentary, Philosophy

4.511.1K Ratings

🗓️ 12 November 2020

⏱️ 61 minutes

🧾️ Download transcript

Summary

If the past week — and past four years — have proven anything, it’s that we are not as different as we believed. No longer is the question, "Can it happen here?" It’s happening already. As this podcast goes to air, the current president of the United States is attempting what — if it occurred in any other country — we would call an anti-democratic coup. This coup attempt will probably not work. But the fact that it is being carried out farcically, erratically, ineffectively does not mean it is not happening, or that it will not have consequences. The most alarming aspect of all this is not Donald Trump’s anti-democratic antics; it’s the speed at which Republican elites have consolidated support around him. Some politicians, like Lindsey Graham, have wholeheartedly endorsed Trump's claims. On Monday, Graham said that Trump should not concede the election and that "Republicans win because of our ideas and we lose elections because [Democrats] cheat." Others — including Mike Pence, Marco Rubio, and Josh Hawley — have signaled solidarity with the president, while not quite endorsing his conspiracies. The message is clear: When faced with the choice of loyalty to Trump and the legitimacy of the democratic process, Republicans are more than willing to throw democracy under the bus. Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for the Atlantic, a senior fellow of international affairs at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, and most recently the author of Twilight of Democracy: The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism. In it, Applebaum, once comfortable in center-right elite circles, grapples with why so many of her contemporaries across the globe — including right here in America — have abandoned liberal democracy in favor of strongman cults and autocratic regimes. We discuss:  How the media would be covering Trump’s actions — and the GOP’s enabling of him — if this were taking place in a foreign country  How the last four years have shattered the belief in the idea that America is uniquely resistant to the lure of authoritarianism Why most politicians under increasingly autocratic regimes choose to collaborate with the regime, and why a select few choose to dissent  The “apocalyptic pessimism” and “cultural despair” that undergirds the worldview of Trump’s most enthusiastic supporters  How Lindsey Graham went from outspoken Trump critic to one of Trump’s most vocal supporters in the US Senate  Why the Republican Party ultimately took the path of Sarah Palin and Donald Trump, not John McCain and Mitt Romney Why what ultimately separates Never Trumpers from Trump enablers is a steadfast commitment to American democracy What we can expect to happen if and when a much more competent, capable demagogue emerges in Trump’s place Whether the Biden administration can lower the temperature of American politics from its fever pitch  The one thing that gives me a glimmer of hope about the Biden presidency    References: "Trump is attempting a coup in plain sight" by Ezra Klein, Vox "History Will Judge the Complicit" by Anne Applebaum, The Atlantic “Laura Ingraham’s Descent Into Despair” by Anne Applebaum, The Atlantic My EK Show conversation with Marilynne Robinson Book recommendations: Absalom, Absalom! by William Faulkner  All the King’s Men by Robert Penn Warren  Gilead by Marilynne Robinson  Credits: Producer/Audio engineer - Jeff Geld Researcher - Roge Karma Please consider making a contribution to Vox to support this show: bit.ly/givepodcasts Your support will help us keep having ambitious conversations about big ideas. New to the show? Want to check out Ezra’s favorite episodes? Check out the Ezra Klein Show beginner’s guide (http://bit.ly/EKSbeginhere) Want to contact the show? Reach out at ezrakleinshow@vox.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Transcript

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0:00.0

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0:24.0

I think that this is an attempt to create a new kind of base, an enraged grieving base, which will always think that the election was stolen.

0:40.0

And this will be a base that is usable. This will be a base that not only dislikes the Democratic Party or disagrees with them,

0:48.0

it will think that the Democratic Party is evil and anti-democratic, that they have stolen the election.

1:06.0

Hello and welcome to the ESRKRANCHO on the Box Media Podcast Network.

1:09.0

So today is Tuesday the 10th. It is one week since Election Day. It is four days since most of the networks called the election.

1:16.0

Donald Trump has not conceded. He is saying that he won the election, that he won a big, that it was stolen from him, that he's going to fight back.

1:23.0

None of which is a surprise. It's what he said he would do. It's what he said he would do in 2016. It's what he said he would do in 2020.

1:30.0

And he's doing it. But he's gone further than that. He is executing a purge of top officials in the military beginning with defense secretary Mark Esper.

1:38.0

If we saw this somewhere else, we would know what to call it.

1:42.0

That this coup attempt will probably not work. Does not mean it is not important. Does not mean it is not dangerous and does not mean it cannot work.

1:51.0

The fact that it is being carried out farcically and erratically and ineffectively. It doesn't mean it's not happening or that it won't have consequences.

2:00.0

And in fact, the fact that is being carried out so farcically, erratically and ineffectively, but has captured the Republican Party so completely makes it in some ways a more dangerous signal of where our political system really isn't how vulnerable it really is.

2:16.0

I want to say this so clearly. What has chilled me and all this is not Donald Trump. Never Donald Trump. He is acting exactly as I expected him to.

2:25.0

He is always acting exactly as he promises to. It is a rest of the Republican Party. Republicans have taken overall two strategies in response here.

2:35.0

One is to wholeheartedly endorse Trump's claim. Senator Lindsey Graham went on Fox News to say Trump shouldn't concede and Democrats only win elections when they steal them.

2:44.0

Lindsey Graham knows better. But he is fully fully fully bought in the other the other strategy we've seen is to make these carefully worded statements that signal a kind of emotional solidarity with Donald Trump without fully endorsing his claims of theft.

3:00.0

Vice President Mike Pence, for instance, tweeted, I stand with Donald Trump. We must count every legal vote. And in the trick, of course, is that's not what Trump wants done. It's actually what the Democrats want done.

3:12.0

So Pence there has a way of walking the line. And that's what a lot of Republicans are doing right now. And there's a reason they're doing it. They think they need the energy of Trump's aggrieved angry base and the support of Trump himself to win among other things the Georgia Senate runoffs.

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