I'm Lee Rowland from the ACLU. This is At Liberty, the podcast where we talk about today's

most pressing civil rights and civil liberties questions. On today's show, the criminalization

of homelessness. December. The December, the month of holiday celebration, conspicuous consumption, year-end reflection, and charitable giving.

It also marks the beginning of winter, a season that can make living without reliable shelter a profound and dangerous challenge.

Homelessness is steadily increasing in America.

In New York City, for example, the number of people in the city's shelter system has risen 75% in the last 10 years.

And as homelessness continues to rise, so too does the willingness of state and local governments

to use criminal laws against their homeless residents. Here to discuss the criminalization of

homelessness is Maria Foscarinas, the founder and executive director of the National

Law Center on Homelessness and Poverty. Maria has been a vocal advocate for decades.

She drafted the first major federal law

addressing homelessness, and she's fought in court to protect the legal rights of homeless people.

And she's led to the law center since founding it in 1989. Maria, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you, Lee. I am very happy to be with you.

So let's start with your recent victory. Thank you, Lee. I am very happy to be with you. So let's start with your recent victory.

Your organization, the Law Center, recently represented clients and won a big case in a federal

appeals court, holding that laws making it illegal to sleep in public violate the Eighth Amendment's

prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment,

at least when they're used against individuals without access to shelter. Can you tell us about that

case? Yes, that's exactly right. So this is a case that we brought against the city of Boise,

Idaho, years ago, actually nine years ago, challenging that city's anti-camping ban. That is a ban that

essentially makes it illegal to sleep in public, even though there is insufficient

...