In this Conflicted Conversation, Thomas speaks to journalist Tim Weiner about his new history of the CIA in the 21st century, The Mission, and about the enduring tension between intelligence gathering and covert action. Drawing on four decades of reporting, Weiner argues that the CIA’s greatest failures arise when it abandons its core purpose of understanding the world in favour of trying to change it. Weiner explains: How he began covering the CIA during the Reagan era and what drew him into intelligence reporting Why the CIA is best understood as an instrument of presidential power, not an independent actor The agency’s post–Cold War collapse and its loss of mission before 9/11 How the War on Terror transformed the CIA into a global counterterrorism and paramilitary force The origins, logic, and consequences of torture, black sites, and the failure of interrogation The intelligence failures behind the Iraq War and how ‘facts were fitted around the policy’ The rise of drone warfare under Obama and the normalization of targeted killing Covert operations from Peru to Syria, including the limits and dangers of programs like TIMBER SYCAMORE The difference between espionage and covert action—and why only the former can prevent war and save lives Why the greatest danger today is a president who ignores intelligence while using the CIA’s coercive power Join the Conflicted Community here: ⁠⁠https://conflicted.supportingcast.fm⁠⁠ Find Conflicted on X: ⁠⁠https://x.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Facebook: ⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/MHconflicted⁠⁠ And Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/conflictedpod⁠⁠ And YouTube: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sdlF1mY5t4⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit ⁠⁠megaphone.fm/adchoices⁠⁠ Conflicted is a Message Heard production. Executive Producers: Jake Warren & Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small . Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices