I would propose that our fundamental model of leadership is at many places defective,

because we're looking for sort of a independently capable, self-starting, strong personality leader.

Now, I would argue that's a recipe for disaster.

The more mature you are, the more godly you are.

The more holiness is your goal, the more dependent you are.

Because that's what you're created for.

Welcome to the Crossway Podcast, a show where we sit down with authors each week for thoughtful

interviews about the Bible, theology, church history, and the Christian life. I'm Matt Tully,

and today I'm talking with Paul Tripp. Paul is an author, a former pastor, and the president of

Paul Tripp Ministries. He's also the best-selling author of many books,

including Lead, 12 Gospel Principles for Leadership in the Church from Crossway.

Today, Paul and I discuss what he calls the leadership crisis in the church today. He explains

what he's been seeing and hearing from pastors that indicates that there is indeed

a crisis. Why healthy leadership in the church is about the leadership community, not just the

head pastor, and what it looks like to address this crisis with the power of the gospel. Let's get

started. Paul, thank you so much for joining me today on the Crossway podcast.

It's so good to be with you.

So you're often referred to as a pastor to pastors.

And in that role, you've walked alongside many, many different pastors and ministry leaders

in the midst of some very difficult situation,

some of them quite high profile. I just wonder if you had to guess how many phone calls

or in-person meetings would you say that you've had over the last few years related to some

...