Welcome back to the podcast, bribe, swindle, or steel.

I'm Alexandra Rogge, and today we're going to range across a number of issues relating to the

culpability of both corporations and individuals for white-collar crime.

My guest is Jesse Isinger.

Jesse is a Pulitzer Prize-winning

journalist. The Pulitzer was awarded for his work exposing dodgy practices on Wall Street

leading to the 2008 economic meltdown. And for our purposes, he's the author of The Chicken Shit

Club, Why the Justice Department Fails to Prosecute Executives. Thank you for joining me, Jesse.

Thanks a lot, Alexandra. Your book is a great read. It's very lively, but why don't you talk

us through the premise of the book that companies are absorbing even very substantial

penalties for misconduct, but the individual executives, not so much. I'm glad you say it's a great read.

I really am flattered by that. I tried to make it very journalistic. So it's full of really

colorful characters going back into even the 1970s Stanley Sporkin, who is an incredible character,

one of the most powerful SEC officials of all time.

The thesis of the book is that the Department of Justice, the country itself, has lost the will

and ability to prosecute top corporate executives.

And what do I mean by that?

What I mean is that it's not just that the Department of Justice doesn't really

want to do this. Of course, they pay lip service to the idea that they would like to do it.

They constantly talk about prosecuting individuals and high-level individuals, but they don't

really want to do it when it comes to the chips are down and they really

have to make a decision, do we want to push this risky, difficult prosecution forward?

...