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Hello and welcome to the Spectator's Book Club podcast. I'm Sam Leith, the literary editor of The Spectator.

And this week I'm very pleased to be joined by the former Australian Prime Minister, Julia Gillard,

whose new book co-authored with the Nigerian former finance minister and foreign minister and economist Ngozi Okonjoi Uweela,

I hope I pronounced her correctly, is Women and Leadership, Real Lives, Real Lessons.

Julia, welcome.

Thank you very much. Great to be with you.

Can you tell me how this book came about?

I mean, how did you and Nkosie get talking? I can tell you. I can tell you. Can you tell me how this book came about? I mean, how did you and Enkosie get talking?

And what made you think we'll write a book? Exactly. What made us think we do this crazy thing and

write a book? We first met each other back in 2012 when I was Prime Minister and Engozy came as

part of the Nigerian delegation to Australia

for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. But really we got to know each other in

international meetings in my time post-politics. I chair the global partnership for education.

She chairs the Global Vaccine Alliance. So we ended up at any number of conferences and events together.

And we got friendly, we got talking.

And increasingly, we started talking about what was happening to women leaders around the world.

And we'd be watching and seeing sexist treatment.

And we're trying to work out how systematic is this,

is every woman's experience a bit different or are there common themes? And then when Hillary

...