Pushkin.

It's hard to read the news these days without asking yourself, how did we get here?

Fiasco is a history podcast for the co-creators of Slow Burn.

In our first season, Bush v. Gore, we examine an unmistakable turning point in American politics, the 2000 election, which resulted in a high-stakes stalemate, ended with one of the most controversial rulings in Supreme Court history.

So if you're trying to make sense at the present moment, check out Fiasco, Bush v. Gore. Listen on theHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

From Pushkin Industries, this is deep background, the show where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

I'm Noah Feldman. The death of George Floyd set off demonstrations across the country, calling for

fundamental reforms of policing. Since then, activists and politicians are trying to give substance

to the idea of change and reform. Democratic members of the House of Representatives are in the

process of proposing reform legislation. Meanwhile, of Representatives are in the process of proposing reform legislation.

Meanwhile, local officials are calling for different sets of reforms, including in some cases the dismantling or defunding of the police.

To discuss both what needs to be done to address police brutality and the capacity of reform more generally

to make meaningful change. I'm joined by Paul Butler. Paul is a professor at the Georgetown

University Law Center. He's a former federal prosecutor and the author of the extraordinary

book, Chokehold, Policing Black Men.

He's also one of the leading scholars in the United States working on the confluence of policing criminal law and race.

Paul, thank you so much for joining me.

Let me start by asking you, you're in D.C. where you teach and live. Have you been

out in the protests? I had to go. On Saturday, I joined a multicultural, multi-generational, huge group of

people as close to the White House as the coward-in-chief would allow us to get.

What was so moving was the spirit of the crowd.

People are fed up.

...