I'm Jonathan Cape Heart and this is Cape Up. Robin De Angelo is the author of

White Fragility, why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism. It's one of the most important books on race

and racism that I've read because it's written by a white woman for white people and

she doesn't mince words.

I actually don't think that most white people care about racial injustice.

The Angelo and I discuss how Amy Cooper's 911 call in Central Park was a terrifying addition to a history of white

women's tears being weaponized against black men.

We discuss the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, and we talk about the broader concept of white fragility and how if you're white you can liberate yourself from it.

As you will hear, this was a cathartic conversation for me.

You can listen to it right now.

Robin Diangelo, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

I've been raving about your book, White Fragility,

why it's so hard for white people to talk about racism since I read it last year.

And one of the chapters in your book

is entitled White Women's Tears.

And I immediately thought of it

in reaction to what happened in Central Park between Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper, no relation.

And you have a, you reprise a vignette in that chapter where someone says to you when a white woman cries a black man gets

hurt and you go on to write not knowing or being sensitive to this history is another

example of white centrality,

individualism, and lack of racial humility.

...